Episode 36: Interview with Shaa Wasmund MBE – Best Selling Author and Entrepreneur

Ep 36: Dawn McGruer Interviews Shaa Wasmund MBE and Best Selling Author for Dawn of a New Era Podcast ‘Chronicles of a Serial Entrepreneur’ 

In this episode, I’m talking with my good friend Shaa Wasmund, Entrepreneur and Best Selling Author. Shaa was named one of the UK Top 20 Most Influential Entrepreneurs. We recorded this interview just as Shaa had been commissioned to write the 10th Anniversary Edition of her book, Stop Talking, Start Doing.

We talk about Shaa’s journey from a young age and where she came from. We also look at Shaa’s tips to entrepreneurs and the her personal regrets in business.

🔥 Shaa has been a lifelong supporter of creating real social mobility through in business.

🔥 In 2015 Shaa received an MBE for her services to business and entrepreneurship.

🔥 She was recently named one of the Top 20 Most Influential Entrepreneurs in the UK by the Sunday Times.

🔥 Today she runs one of the biggest and most active business Facebook Groups in the UK, The Freedom Collective, and has built a multi-million-pound online business from her back garden.

🔥 Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast – I have some pretty epics guest lined up for the next 3 months (yep I have been a busy bee!) and I promise the stories and insights my guests are going to be sharing are out of this world in terms of inspiring!!!

Did you know that my podcast Dawn of a New Era has reached the top 10% most popular shows out of 1,992,247 podcasts globally, ranked by Listen Score?… Just 8 months and 36 episodes in – SUBSCRIBE NOW
Interview with Shaa Wasmund

Here are the highlights from the episode:

{2:57} How Shaa has wondered about getting out of the online world

{5:33} How being financially empowered means you have choices

{7:51} How Shaa has been taking home 6 figures since she was 21 years old

{10:44} How 2020 changed Shaa’s goals

{12:35} How your idea of success can change

{15:55} Shaa’s business focus after lockdown in June

{17:40} The people who Shaa believes got her to where she is now

{20:05} Shaa’s advice for people going through a tough entrepreneurial journey right now

{22:09} Business partner versus no business partner

{24:13} Shaa’s regrets in business

{26:42} Compete with yourself and collaborate with others


Connect with Shaa Wasmund at shaa.com

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Dawn McGruer’s Marketing * Motivation * Mindset Group    



 
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Shaa’s MBE and the story behind her name

 

Dawn McGruer:

Many of you have been waiting for this interview. It’s been booked in for a while, and this is my good friend and also an amazing entrepreneur, best-selling author, what can I say? You were named UK’s Top 20 Most Influential Entrepreneurs. How many books have we got now?

Shaa Wasmund:

Wow, we’ve got four, but I’ve just found out that I’m being commissioned to write the 10th Anniversary Edition of Stop Talking, Start Doing. Which was the book that literally changed everything for me, so I’m going to do that. Then I’ve also got another book published or commissioned by Penguin, so I think I’m going to have a summer in Barbados writing books.

Dawn McGruer:

A bit of writing, a bit creativity-

Shaa Wasmund:

Yeah I’m looking forward to it.

Dawn McGruer:

Well, I’m so glad you’ve joined us today because you’ve got probably one of the most interesting stories of entrepreneurs that I’ve met. Because you were born in the US, raised in the UK and really unusual name. What’s the history of your name?

Shaa Wasmund:

So Shaa is Navajo Indian, it means sunshine. My mom was actually working on a Navajo Indian reservation with me when she was pregnant.

Dawn McGruer:

Wow, okay. In terms of your entrepreneurial journey then, you say that the book that you’re going to be doing, the 10th Anniversary, changed the way that you live. When did you get your MBE by the way?

Shaa Wasmund:

So my MBE was five years ago now, so I got that five years ago. I guess it all started for me from quite an early age. I think that, I grew up incredibly poor and if anything was going to change in my life, I realized that I had to be the one who was going to make that happen. If you can hear a dog barking in the background, I apologize. I have a puppy that looks like a horse. I have the most beautiful doberman puppy, but he’s huge. He has a very loud bark and he’s very protective. And right now, school has just broken out and so the kids are walking towards the house, minding their own business, but Leo-

Dawn McGruer:

He wants to play.

Shaa Wasmund:

Well no. Leo my puppy, just interprets anyone walking past the house as if they’re an armed robber and he’s going to make sure that they know, “Do not come to my mom’s door.”

Dawn McGruer:

“I’m your safety net.”

Shaa Wasmund:

Yeah it’s quite funny. He’s so calm normally, but when he sees people walking past, he just goes a bit mental. So for me, I think my entrepreneurial journey started really, really young. I think that I knew all along that I was really not going to go into a regular job, regular workforce. That wasn’t going to be my thing.

 

How Shaa has wondered about getting out of the online world

 

Dawn McGruer:

Since I’ve known you in the past couple of years, you’ve not really fitted in the conventional sense. But I think so many people will probably see where you are now. You’ve written so many books, you’ve got an MBE, you’ve got a really interesting journey. But is there a point that when you started your business that you thought “I maybe just don’t want to do this?” Or a point where you just thought, this-

Shaa Wasmund:

Oh absolutely, I’ll be really honest with you. In 2020, there were multiple times when I just thought for different reasons, I don’t know if I want to do this anymore. I know you felt like that. I think every entrepreneur felt like that. Sometimes it’s personal reasons. Sometimes you just fall out of love with the business that you’re running. And by the way, if you are feeling like that and you’re listening to this, that is totally normal. For me, I kind of fell out of love with the online space. I felt like there was just a lot of charlatans and snake oil people peddling quick fix solutions to people who couldn’t afford them. And it just made me feel like, I don’t know about this industry. You know what, I’m just going to go and do property development. I don’t have to speak to anyone online. Don’t even have to go online. I can remove all my social media presence and I’m just going to do some property because I like doing property and-

 

How being financially empowered means you have choices

 

Dawn McGruer:

We’ve been very similar in this haven’t we, in our view. Because during the pandemic, we were both going through massive changes of our businesses and we both saw these people, the gurus coming out. And it just seemed so icky and just really horrible the way that people were presenting. And I know that people were trying to be flexible and dynamic in the way they were working. But it felt like a really not nice space to be. And I kind of took a little bit of a step back, you took a step back and we kind of reworked our businesses. And I think the thing is, people have this sense that a business has to be running out of this huge empire. Like a bricks and mortar or big offices, huge teams all working in there. And we’ve been working like that in the opposite sense for a long time. But many people, I think the pandemic’s given them the opportunity to step back and be more lean and more efficient because you run your empire out of your garden.

Shaa Wasmund:

I do yeah. I’ve got a proper office, like a beautiful garden office with all glass doors that open up onto a little veranda, decking along my garden. And I live on a royal park. I’ve got beautiful house. And for me, I think that’s why I was so lucky. This isn’t my first rodeo. It’s my fifth seven figure business. So to put that into context, I’m not relying on anything to maintain my lifestyle. And I don’t want a Ferrari or a helicopter. I’m not saying this to be braggadocious, I’m saying it for the context. I think it’s really important. I’ve got a multi-million pound house on a royal park in London, and I’ve got a multi-million pound house on the beach in Whitstable. And I say that because, what that means for me is there’s nothing else that I want or really need.

I don’t want a bigger house. I don’t want a different car. I don’t want a helicopter. I don’t want a yacht. I would just like to be able to travel again. So being financially empowered, which is what drives me and what drives me to help others to do, has meant that I could coast in 2020. I could say I’m only going to do the stuff that I really want to do. And if I don’t want to do it, I’m not doing it. Because I’m financially empowered. Because I have very minimal mortgages.

I think my house in Whitstable has a mortgage of £133 a month for a £2 million house. So, I say all this to say to people, you know what, the point of you becoming financially empowered is so that you have choices. This is not my first rodeo. This is my fifth seven figure business. So where I am today is a cumulation of years and years of hard graft. That has allowed me to be in a position today where like you Dawn, I could say I’m not sure that I want to do this anymore. Or I’m not sure I want to do this like this anymore. And that’s what I learnt in 2020.

 

How Shaa has been taking home 6 figures since she was 21 years old

 

Dawn McGruer:

Do you feel like there was a point where you hit, where you could kind of really step into a truer you Because for me, I felt like there was a point in my business where I was kind of doing the same thing, and then it just sort of changed and everything just became a little bit clearer of where I needed to be. But it wasn’t something I could have pushed or forced, it just happened.

Shaa Wasmund:

Yeah, for me, it was seeing things online that made me feel really uncomfortable. That I thought to myself, these products or programs are being marketed to people as literally an overnight solution to passive income. Or it’s like the lottery ticket. And you and I both know.

Dawn McGruer:

Something on it, yeah. And it’s like the do or die.

Shaa Wasmund:

Yeah, and you and I both know that business doesn’t work like that. And so I’ve always been very uncomfortable with marketing messages that are aimed particularly at startups. That are aimed particularly at people who need to make a side income. Because those are usually the people who are the most vulnerable. They are the most vulnerable because they don’t have enough experience. And most vulnerable because they don’t have enough money. And that was when I just thought to myself, you know what? I’m just not sure this is for me anymore. There’s so many different things I could do to make money and how much money do I really need to make? I’ve been taking home six figures since I was 21. That means at 21, I wasn’t a professional footballer, I wasn’t a musician. So to take home six figures at 21, that was my mindset, not my skillset.

Because at 21, I didn’t have a skillset that would warrant six figures. But I had a mindset that would warrant six figures. So it just made me reassess and think, okay, what do I really, really want to do? And for me, 2020 was a year of unpacking going back to my roots, thinking about what really matters to me? Who matters to me? Who are my ideal clients? Who do I serve best? And the truth is, I’m not for everyone. And I am totally all right with that. I really struggle with people who maybe have good intentions, but they don’t do the work.

 

How 2020 changed Shaa’s goals

 

Dawn McGruer:

Yeah. Do you feel like, when you think about your goals and you think about the shift, like your twenties, thirties, forties, et cetera, that it became more difficult to think about what was a very inspiring goal? For me, I felt that same thing for me. I had my own business to 21, mortgage free at 33. I felt that I was kind of chasing goals that were out there that were society driven a bit more. And then it took me probably into my thirties to really truly understand what was inspirational to me. What was going to make me tick when I got up each day? They’d shift, how did your goals change from obviously being very successful at a young age?

Shaa Wasmund:

One thing I want to pick up on. And I’d love to ask you whether you thought the same way. So I think for me, I got to a point in my life where, when I was younger I could never have dreamed of getting here. So for me, that point was being financially free. Having not just one, but two beautiful homes. And having assets. And I could never, ever have imagined living on a royal park or having a house on the beach. I couldn’t imagine any of those things. So to have all of those things, I think that’s when I hit a plateau. I was like, well I don’t know what I’m reaching for anymore. Like I’m beyond a point that I could ever have imagined. So what do I do now? Where do I go now?

 

How your idea of success can change

 

Dawn McGruer:

Do you feel that it’s a sense of difference in terms of objectives and goals? Like I felt that I wasn’t striving for the materialistic and things like that necessarily in the beginning, but those things come. But when I was thinking about what my goals were, when I was getting into my thirties, it became more about life. And it was more about fulfillment, if that makes sense. And just kind of feeling like my purpose was serving others. But it needed to serve me more. And that was the biggest, I think, change for me in that past 20 years.

Shaa Wasmund:

So for me, I think the biggest shift has been moving away from wanting to be financially secure, to then wanting to go through… I went through a phase of just wanting to test things. What can I do? How far can I push myself? And then 2020, really cemented that actually for me, it’s about two different things. On the one hand, how many people can I impact? How many people can I help, really truly change the way they think about themselves and their businesses? How many people can I impact to become financial empowered on a big, broad, impactful scale? And then on the other side, which is interesting, and this started with the cartel mastermind, was how can I serve those who want to take the most action the best? So rather than doing programs that serve thousands and thousands of people-

Dawn McGruer:

Going smaller.

Shaa Wasmund:

Actually going smaller and saying, how can I build a mastermind that’s not the cartel? Because that’s quite bespoke and closed. But how could I build a mastermind of maybe up to a hundred people who are already doing six figures, who are totally focused and totally dedicated. And then I bring not only myself, but all of my contacts to bear, to that small group. So it’s on the one hand serving thousands through maybe an annual program. That hopefully people go through it and then get themselves in a position where they can join the smaller program. Because what I’ve figured is, I don’t do the bit in the middle very well. I really like fast action takers. It doesn’t matter where you’re at on your journey, but just that you want to do this, you’re all in. I’m all in for people who are all in.

Dawn McGruer:

Yeah you’re very pragmatic. You’re very on it. We’re quite similar in that sense. I think one of the things I found difficult was understanding what success was. Because I think perception in society is very different to what success is in my mind. And I think one of the things I’ve had a power struggle with is understanding when people see you as successful, is understanding whether I’m successful and-

Shaa Wasmund:

And they’re challenges for you Dawn. I think. What you used to think was successful for you might not be what you think today.

Dawn McGruer:

Completely different. I would honestly say that I’ve really struggled with people saying, “Oh you’ve done well.” And it’s not that you disregard it, it’s that you’ve changed. So I’m moving that fast sometimes I think in my mind, in business, that success is different on a daily basis. So I think-

Shaa Wasmund:

Well let me ask you, what does success look like for you today?

Dawn McGruer:

Oh, completely different. I think it’s about fulfillment. And this is something that is a big word for me at the moment and enrichment. And I’ve kind of felt that I can go through every process. I can do as many things on my to do list. I can generate books or podcasts, whatever it is. But that’s just not making me satisfied as a whole. It’s about the balance of everything. So looking at the whole success plan, my life in general. You know, relationships, friends, things that are enriching my day to day. And I think that’s the biggest shift that I’ve been through, for sure.

 

Shaa’s business focus after lockdown in June

 

Shaa Wasmund:

Yeah. So I think for me, it’s shifted from a monetary goal to, am I in flow? Am I really loving the work that I do? And how much time have I got off to enjoy it? So those are my key criteria. Now they’re my KPI. Before would be based on, well how many units have we sold? How profitable are we? What was our turnover? What was our margins? I’m not saying those things aren’t important, they are. But I was talking to somebody else earlier saying that, I know that there are plenty of business owners out there who are running seven figure businesses, who take home less than many people who are running six figure businesses. And so for me, it’s about going, let’s get focused on the sanity metrics, not the vanity metrics.

It’s not about your top line turnover, what are you actually taking home into your own pocket? We’ve had all of this talk in business accounting around profit first. I think that’s great, but I also think we need to be talking about income first. You’re running businesses, what is your income? What are you taking home? And how much time have you got to enjoy it? Now I know the pandemic’s really put a spanner in the works when it comes to time off. Because I don’t know about you, but sometimes I don’t even know what the day is anymore.

Dawn McGruer:

I feel like the worst thing with the pandemic has been that I’ve just been so attached to work, that I am so close to it, that getting the bigger picture view that I used to have when I was traveling manically, sitting on a train and just have my own time out. I neither want to go back to that, but I neither want to be in this. I want to be somewhere in the middle. And I think that is a big thing that you say, that it’s about the balance. It’s about taking home the money, doing what you want to do. But I also think for me, it’s doing what I want to do, not what I perceive I need to do.

Shaa Wasmund:

I just want to go to Marrakech.

 

The people who Shaa believes got her to where she is now

 

Dawn McGruer:

Yeah absolutely. Bring on September retreat. But yeah, I think the thing is it’s about working in a way that really satisfies us. And we’ve both run programs, groups, things like that, that haven’t fully satisfied and you have to make that shift, so that it’s working for everybody. But if you had to say that, let’s say in June, when we come out of the pandemic, what is going to be the first thing that you are going to do business wise?

Shaa Wasmund:

So the first thing I’m going to do after June business-wise, is focus on launching my new program, Empowered, which launches in July. We’ve got a founder members beta launch in April. And then the main launch is in July. And then I’m going, that is going to be my focus for the next five years. It’ll be an annual program, teaching people how to build a six figure business model in six weeks is what I’m passionate about. And that’s all I’m going to focus on. And then I will be focusing on a real… A much more smaller, bespoke, empowered circle mastermind. And literally I’m simplifying so that I can amplify what matters to me. And of course I couldn’t say what I would do, without saying I’ll also be getting out of the country as soon as I possibly can.

Dawn McGruer:

Yeah, for sure. Well, the good news is, I’m going to Barbados in October. Hopefully, fingers crossed. And we’ve got a retreat in September. But if you were to rewind the clock and the pandemic hadn’t happened, what do you think, what pitfall do you think you’d be going through now that the pandemic has actually aided you getting past? If that makes sense.

Shaa Wasmund:

I think it’d be the same thing. I don’t think anything would change apart from the pandemic acted like a magnifier. So it gave me more time to be reflective. It made me… Yeah, I think it was just a magnifier.

Dawn McGruer:

And if you were to look back over the years. I mean, you’ve worked with Sir James Dyson, you’ve worked with lots and lots of big entrepreneurs. And you’ve had a lot of people and influence in your life. Who or what has been the most influential in terms of sitting there today thinking, I wouldn’t have been able to get here without…

Shaa Wasmund:

Ooh.

Dawn McGruer:

Toughie isn’t it?

Shaa Wasmund:

Yeah. So I would have to say it would start with my mum and my nan because they really taught me that even though we didn’t have money, they just believed in me. They made me feel from a really, really young age that I was something special. I don’t mean that in an arrogant way, but in a you can do anything Shaa. You are made of different stuff Shaa. You have been through so much and you are always positive. You have to understand that you’re different. And that comes with a responsibility. You have to show up in life with the gifts that you’re given. And then I would say my head mistress. I was very lucky. I got a scholarship to the City of London School for Girls, one of the top private schools in the country. And I came from a council estate. And the headmistress there, Lady France, without any doubt, she was absolutely instrumental in changing how I thought about my life massively, massively so.

And then I would say that it was actually Chris Eubank, the former super middleweight champion. Because at 21, he took a chance on an unknown 21 year old, who was doing an economics degree at LSE to take over running all of his promotions, who had no prior experience. He was just like, “You tell me you can do it, I believe you can do it until you prove me otherwise.” I mean, that’s quite a ballsy move, right? To give all of that responsibility to a 21 year old. That massively changed my life. And then a hundred percent working with James Dyson for five years was like doing an MBA. And again, it just reinforced. So I kept having these pretty incredible people support me, champion me, buy into me, make me believe in myself. And it’s like a muscle, because Chris did it and then James did it, I thought oh it must be true.

 

Shaa’s advice for people going through a tough entrepreneurial journey right now

 

Dawn McGruer:

Yeah. What do you feel like, in terms of throughout the pandemic we’ve seen lots of businesses rise. We’re seeing in lots of businesses in difficulty. I mean, there’ll be people listening to this who are thinking, well it’s all very well Shaa, Dawn whatever, you’ve got your podcast, you’ve got your books and all that jazz. But where would you tell someone who is going through a tough entrepreneurial journey right now, where to start with business? I think people are in such an overwhelm that I think sometimes just identifying where to start is the problem.

Shaa Wasmund:

Oh totally. A hundred percent, find a coach that you really resonate with. And I’m going to be even more straighter. Don’t just find a business coach, find a coach who’s got business experience. I’m not talking about a qualification. Qualifications are great, but if you are in business right now, and you’re at a crossroads or you feel overwhelmed, or you don’t know what to do, or you feel like you’re imploding. Reach out to somebody who’s experienced. Find somebody who you resonate with on a personal level, but who also has deep business experience, not just a coaching qualification. Because they might be a good coach, but they’re not able to come with experience or solutions to the table. You need to find somebody that you can book a VIP day with, a power hour, a couple of hours. It will be worth every penny just to have somebody who is totally unbiased. So not your friends, not your family, not your work colleagues. But someone who’s totally unbiased that has a breadth of business experience. Listen to you and talk to you about your particular situation. That will be game changing. That’s what I would do.

Dawn McGruer:

Yeah, someone’s got to have lived and breathed it. And I think this is one of the things that we’re very true about, that when you’re doing a coaching program or whatever you’re doing, that the person has to be aligned to where you’re at. And often when you’re at the point of most stress in your business, you need someone’s going to be super practical, but who’s going to talk to you in a manner that, they’re not judging. They’re not looking at it. But do you know what the best thing is? They’ll have been through it. They will have-

Shaa Wasmund:

That’s it.

Dawn McGruer:

And to see somebody who has been through it, turbulent times, probably multiple times and they come out the other end, it gives you that hope and positivity that I think you need. Because it could be the soul’s dropped out of your business and you don’t really know where to turn. You’re not going to be in the best decision-making point and you-

Shaa Wasmund:

And we all need that. I need it, you need it. We all need it. And like Dawn said, the most important thing in that situation is that I can guarantee, if you find anyone who’s got experience, they will have been through this themselves. The very thing that you’re going through, they will have been through it and come out the other side. And that’s reassuring because you’re like, okay I’m not in this myself. And they can tell you from experience what it felt like and how they got through it. So that would be my advice.

 

Business partner versus no business partner

 

Dawn McGruer:

So, one last question before we go. You’ve been on an entrepreneurial journey, whereby these businesses you own, you have worked with other people within the businesses. But fundamentally you’re the figurehead, you’re the person who is responsible and everything comes back to you. How have you felt through that journey? Because it can be lonely. Has there been points where you’ve wished that you had someone there with you or are you glad that you’ve gone solo?

Shaa Wasmund:

Oh no. There’s been multiple points that I wished that I had a business partner who could do all of the backend. Because I’m really good at the front end, but what I really need is a business partner who can handle the marketing and the operations. I can do the front of the marketing, but they need to do the back of the marketing. I’m great at making money, but I’ve got no desire to manage it. I’ll bring it in, you take care of it once it’s through the front door. And I think that I definitely wouldn’t say that I could imagine in the future I will get into, potentially more than one business partnerships.

Because I think that with maturity of experience, you realize what to look out for in your business partners. So when you’re just starting out, you just think, “Oh, this is great.” Without doing your own due diligence. Do you even fit as personality types? Because that’s a really important thing. So yeah, listen there’s lots of upside to doing it all by yourself. You get to make all the decisions, but you have to live with those decisions as well. So I think has got pros and cons. But I definitely think that going forward, I can see a possibility for more than one business partnership on the horizon in the next probably two years.

 

Shaa’s regrets in business

 

Dawn McGruer:

So a lot of people have commented here about, perception is key, about success, et cetera. We’re very authentic and honest about the fact that we’ve failed at times. What would you say is your biggest failure, if you have regret around or you wish you hadn’t done?

Shaa Wasmund:

Yeah, I guess a couple of things. My biggest overall regret is not what most people would probably think. My biggest overall regret is that I didn’t become the world’s biggest sports agent. Because I had an opportunity to definitely be in the running for it. When I was 21, when I was working in boxing, I knew everybody, everyone in the whole industry, not just boxing, but the whole sports industry. All the top sports people. And as a female who had an economics degree from LSU, I was prime position that I knew what to do to structure deals. I could have run that gig and done really well. But because of my background, I didn’t feel like it was a proper job and in hindsight, I wish that I had. Because I was a hundred percent in my flow when I was in that role, like a hundred percent in my flow.

So that’s probably my biggest regret when it comes to business, really. And then the second one I think is just that, we know that we need to be ourselves, but it’s an easy thing to say and the hardest thing to do. But I’m going to sound like Dr. Seuss, the more me I’ve become, the me’er me I am, the better my business is. So the more I show up as my real self, the better I am and the better my business is. And I think that it just takes a lot of psychological unpacking to make us really believe that rather than just hear it.

 

Compete with yourself and collaborate with others

 

Dawn McGruer:

Yeah, because I think there’s two challenges. If you think about when you create a business and the business evolves, so does your expertise and experience. So I think sometimes people are running businesses that is not getting the most out of them and the most out of the clients. So it’s a big change, isn’t it sometimes, to be able to recognize where you’re going and where the pitfalls and challenges are taking you. Because honestly, I started off as a programmer. I mean, really? You know me, can you see me doing programming?

Shaa Wasmund:

No.

Dawn McGruer:

No, but I honestly thought that that was going to be my career. And then I started loving marketing and psychology. And I think the thing is, it’s never too late is it to change? If you wake up and you don’t like what you do, you can make these changes. You don’t have to stay. So give us one lasting piece of advice or a quote or something that we can remember today’s interview by.

Shaa Wasmund:

Oh, okay. Compete with yourself and collaborate with others. That’s always my motto. Compete with yourself and collaborate with others.

Dawn McGruer:

Yeah. None of this FOMO of looking at social media and judging yourself. It’s all about working together, collaborating and partnerships. Because that is a really powerful, I think, thing for 2021 going forward. The more we can support and collaborate. And you, where’s the best place to find you? I see you on Clubhouse all the time. It’s like your new favorite hangout.

Shaa Wasmund:

It is, I love Clubhouse, I’ve got to say. Just come over to shaa.com, that’s it. Hop on over to the website, shaa.com and you’ll find everything over there.

Dawn McGruer:

And I’m sure we can see, is it Leo on Instagram?

Shaa Wasmund:

You can see Leo on Instagram. He’s currently-

Dawn McGruer:

Exactly, he is the one last little shot of Leo. There we go, oh bless. All right, well thank you so much for joining us on Dawn of a New Era Podcast, and lovely to see you as always. And please feel free to drop any comments below.

Take care everyone, bye.

Shaa Wasmund:

Bye.

Dawn McGruer:

I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode and don’t forget, I’m going to be with you each and every week. So download and listen on Dawnmcgruer.com or on iTunes and come and join us in our Facebook community too. All the details are on the website and I’ll see you next week.

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